"zoners - the newsgroup file" (v1.00) assembled by =CO=Windler 2000-04-07 I am researcher of neuronomy - the science of the improvement of the usage of brain and nervous system. This file is a collection of newsgroup articles about the phenomenon of "the zone",i.e. about that very special alterated state of mind that is induced by certain kinds of monotonous high-speed skill videogames. Although this text is a bit messy,it is a valuable source of informations and tips about the phenomenon of "zoning" and "zoner" videogames.Possibly in fu- ture I will assemble a better overviewable "videogame trance FAQ" about this topic so far I find time to do so.Also don't miss my text "Why we blast?!" on my historical videogames internet page. MAY THE SOFTWARE BE WITH YOU! *============================================================================* I CYBERYOGI Christian Oliver(=CO=) Windler I I (teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) I I ! I *=============================ABANDON=THE=BRUTALITY==========================* {http://www.informatik.fh-hamburg.de/~windle_c/e_index.html} From windle_c@knopp Fri Nov 12 16:52:06 1999 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:47:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: =CO= Windler To: tes@southwest.com.au Subject: About the "ZONE"... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Christopher Bedwell wrote: > > Whats a " Zone " ? > > Chris. The zone is a very special,meditative state of mind,generated by certain kinds of monotonous high-speed skill videogames etc. ... MAY THE SOFTWARE BE WITH YOU! *============================================================================* I CYBERYOGI Christian Oliver(=CO=) Windler I I (teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) I I ! I *=============================ABANDON=THE=BRUTALITY==========================* --- From jbenfield@usa.netWed Apr 30 14:39:06 1997 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 21:14:55 GMT From: John Benfield To: CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler Subject: Re: Modernizing classics destroys gameplay! (Re: LGP Games Presents New 'Retro-Arcade'...) I agree wholeheartedly. If I want a modern game, I expect it to be completely new. If I want the old game, I want it for the original "Zen Factor" and overall feel. Regurgitated games just don't cut it. John Benfield jbenfield@usa.net --- From - Thu May 7 17:32:50 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!not-for-mail From: CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: More about the "ZONE" and "zoner" games... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:31:39 +0200 Organization: (I'm teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) Lines: 95 Message-ID: <3551D3DB.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> References: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <894425210.833468@karri.southwest.com.au> <3550ea99.46158383@news-server.san.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fbi010.informatik.fh-hamburg.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105495 rec.games.video.classic:112155 jrok - http://www.jrok.com wrote: > > On Wed, 6 May 1998 11:36:39 +0800, "Christopher Bedwell" > wrote: > > >Whats a " Zone " ? > > It's the near Nirvana like state you reach after playing > Defender for 6 hours straight without a bathroom break.. > > But seriously it's when you reach the point that you're > playing a game completely on reactions without thinking > and can basically play for as long as you want..... > > Defender is supposed to be THE 'zone' game. You can > get into the zone with Pacman too. I wouldn't recommend to try to define the phenomenon of the "zone" by how much points one can get or how long one can continously play it,but way rather by the "feeling"(i.e. the state of mind) that a certain game is able to create. That someone may play a game very long in the "zone" is rather a side effect and nothing describing this phenomene. [Read my article "About the "ZONE"..." in this thread.] Writing good "zoner" games is quite difficult.If it would be just a matter of points and continous play time,then "Leprechaun" on MAME or "Peter Penguin" on VCS2600 would be doubtless perfect zoners,because they are so easy that every dunce may play them for a long time without going game-over.I would rather call it a design flaw,when a pure skill game(without exploration elements) stops getting harder and though makes it possible to continously play for lon- ger than ca. 30 minutes. What matters for a zoner game is not play time,but a very special form of playability.It would be easy to modify nearly any badly playable games by ad- ding tons of bonus lives etc. to make it possible to play them for very long times and get lots of points,but this wouldn't make any "zoners" of them. One of the crucial key elements of "zoner" games is(beside monotony etc.) a special sort of fairness,based on perfect overviewability AND bodily control- ability,which makes the player always feel during each mistake that HE did a mistake,and not "this dammed game program".One of such games is e.g. Activi- sion's great maze game "Zenji" on C64;it always gives the feeling that the player's skill/overwiew determines the result,and not an uncontrolable beha- vior of some enemies in the game. Though the game can bring the player into a state of mind where only speed de- termines the doing,making his brain able to clean up itself. [See article "About the "ZONE"...] ("Tetris" e.g. is missing this special sort of controlability,because at high- est speed at the end the player stays still able to think the correct moves, but becomes bodily unable to move his hands fast enough to do them.A good zo- ner game should rather do this the other way round at the end.) Long times ago in an old article Joe Ottoson wrote in a thread mentioning the "zone": > Last I heard, a unresolved fight or flight response was harmful in terms > of blood pressure, neural activity, and overall well being. That's exactly > what happens when you lose or start to do badly. I gave the following answer about the special playability of a "zoner": >A well designed zoner game doesn't make you feel like a looser,because it >doesn't interrupt the gameplay for longer than a few seconds when loosing a >"life" and doesn't restart a long scrolling levels from the beginning.(Good >zoners usually don't scroll through different landscapes anyway because this >would limit the overwievability.But there are also exceptions(as e.g. the >fantastic Amiga zoner game "Blaster",which can be found on the Aminet website, >filename "Blaster.lha").Games those make angry after loosing a life(e.g. in >cause of restarting a 5 minute long scroll level from its beginning) usually >are no good zoners. >Perfect zoner games should feel like floating though a constant stream of ac- >tions and make you forget that you loose lives as soon as you continue in >cause of their monotony. By the way,does anybody know where the term "in the zone" came from and when it did occure first? Was this term already used in pinball arcades before videogames were invented, or did it occure later? I could only imagine that it had to do with Atari's(at its time graphically very extraordinary) 3D arcade game "Battle Zone",although I today wouldn't call this 1st person shooter a "typical" zoner. MAY THE SOFTWARE BE WITH YOU! *============================================================================* I CYBERYOGI Christian Oliver(=CO=) Windler I I (teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) I I ! I *=============================ABANDON=THE=BRUTALITY==========================* --- From - Tue May 5 14:10:33 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!not-for-mail From: CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? (was:"Whats the closest to death you've come?") Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:08:43 +0200 Organization: (I'm teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) Lines: 69 Message-ID: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: fbi010.informatik.fh-hamburg.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105077 rec.games.video.classic:111895 What was your most unusual experience you had "in the zone"? In mknox13415@aol.com (MKnox13415) wrote in the thread "Whats the closest to death you've come?": >> What is the closest to dying you have ever come while involved with >> collecting arcade games? > > Well, I don't know how close to injury I came in reality, but back in the > early 80s I was playing Defender in my local video arcade, a small place > situated at the back of the ground floor of a dingy, dark old building. The > floor above was rented out by a massage parlour (read 'brothel'), and on this > particular day the spa pool overflowed. Water was pouring down through the > ceiling on to the games and the operator was going around turning them off and > kicking everyone out. I, however, was in the process of getting a new high > score and wild horses wouldn't drag me away (you know the feeling!). The > operator ended up backing down after initially threatening to turn the game > off for my own safety, and I ended up the only one left playing, wet and > standing in a big puddle of water in the darkened room. As each attack wave > came to an end, I had to wipe the accumulated water off the screen and control > panel with my arm. Luckily, it all ended happily: I got my high score and > didn't get electrocuted and the arcade was only closed for a short time! Whow! The force to finish that game could obviously only be created by the po- wer of the "zone". I remember well,that in my childhood many parents couldn't understand that strange,attracting experience that kept children for hours doing nothing else than sitting or standing moveless in front of these new "video-games" for shooting strange looking objects etc. The parents frightened,their children would become a sort of "video zombies" or something similar,because they couldn't understand the meditation-like phenomenon of being "in the zone",and why their children shouted to them "shut up!" as soon as the parents disturbed their playing. Because many videogames were of more or less brutalistic contents,in Germany such arcade games were once often scolded "Killer-Automaten"("killer ma- chines"),which is a word that seems to have its ethymological roots in a vari- ation on the term "Keller-Automaten",which is the German word for the compu- ter science's automata theorie term "pushdown stack automata". I wish to know: What was the most unusual experience that happened during you were "in the zone" while playing a videogame(or pinball),especially when the zone made you depite keep on playing. Continuing playing an arcade game while it is being soaked by water from the ceiling is certainly a very extraodinary situation,but there are certainly a lot of other strange things(do you remember "The Bishop of Battle" from movie "Nightmares" ;) ) those could happen while playing a videogame... Did your house break down? Did your TV started to smell badly and smoked during play? Did your candeled advent whreath catch fire? Did your pressure cooker spill its contents over the entire kitchen ceiling by exploding? Did you have an epileptic attack or got unconscious during a game? Did your chair broke down? Or did just your joystick handle crack off during play and you still finished the game successfully with the remaining stump? Please tell us your game experiences;it is exciting to share them. MAY THE SOFTWARE BE WITH YOU! *============================================================================* I CYBERYOGI Christian Oliver(=CO=) Windler I I (teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) I I ! I *=============================ABANDON=THE=BRUTALITY==========================* --- From - Thu May 14 15:54:31 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.uni-paderborn.de!fu-berlin.de!feeder.qis.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netaxs.com!usenet From: "E. Charles Plant" Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic,rec.games.video.arcade.collecting Subject: Re: Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? (was:"Whats the closest to death you've come?") Date: 12 May 1998 17:26:03 GMT Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service Lines: 32 Message-ID: <01bd7dca$e1ce4760$92a508cf@teletran-four> References: <35588155.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.8.165.146 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:112751 rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:106410 This, my friends, is a wonderful thread. > I remember well,that in my childhood many parents couldn't understand ... I know exactly what you're talking about. I wonder if I could get the government to give me money and a lab full of doctors to study the effect. It's a mental thing... Children who wouldn't normally say such things to their parents did so while in "the zone." It's not the child's fault, and it's not the video game's, either. We all know what it's like. I remember once challenging my mother to a game of Q*Bert. She played her round, then it was my turn. I just kept playing and playing and playing. She eventually leaned down right into my ear and yelled "DIE!" I didn't even blink. --E. Charles Plant --- From - Wed May 6 17:23:53 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!news.voicenet.com!news.temple.edu!news.auhs.edu!192.54.238.28 From: Chris Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? (was:"Whats the closest to death you've come?") Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:39:21 -0400 Organization: Allegheny University of the Health Sciences Lines: 44 Message-ID: <354F32A9.227F@auhs.edu> References: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> Reply-To: moffa@auhs.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: news.auhs.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105114 rec.games.video.classic:111917 Hey man, CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler wrote: > > What was your most unusual experience you had "in the zone"? [ cool story snipped...] Mine aren't too special, but wacky: When I was around 10, and really caught up in the video game craze, I was playing Space Invaders, Asteroids and some others nonstop on the 2600. It got so bad that I had problems "seeing." I would look around, and the sunlight would bother my eyes (should have gotten out more) or would have problems focussing my eyes. And sometimes I would see glimpses of space invaders or rocks splitting and I would be nowhere near the 2600. They weren't hallucinations, but it's the same after you've been playing a PC game for 6 hours straight, then try to go to sleep soon after! I had mild headaches and eyeaches but I didn't care, I kept playing like a madman! The other time was when we got out first computer - a TI 99/4a. We had no room for it downstairs so it got set up in the musty, depressing attic. All there was was a pathetic light bulb in the ceiling, which was not enough light. I used to sneak upstairs when my parents were sleeping to type in programs from magazines, or to play stuff off of tapes, or program in Basic on my own. So I had this little crappy portable light. My TI was hooked up to a 13" TV set. In order to see anything, I had to place the lamp on top of the TV (no room on the desk) and point it down over the screen. Well, one time I wasn't paying attention, and the bulb started burning a whole in the top of the TV! Hehhehehe. It started smouldering but I was so caught up in messing with the TI that I didn't notice until flames started flickering. When I pulled the plug on the lamp and removed it, the TV had this melted black spot on the top, about the size of a baseball. They still have the TV set and it still works today, some 17 years later. Hehehehehe. chris moffa@auhs.edu --- From - Tue May 26 13:56:23 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.fh-hannover.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.63.63.70!nwnews.wa.com!rook.wa.com!brian.hammack From: brian.hammack@rook.wa.com (Brian Hammack) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Q:What was your most unusual experience Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:30:00 GMT Message-ID: <79738934-980522113000@rook.wa.com> Distribution: world Lines: 35 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:113619 Cyberyogi raised the cup and toasted: C=W<| What was your most unusual experience you had "in the zone"? Let's just say that I made up the phrase "Advice: never make toast while you're on the modem" because of this sort of thing. :) It was half a lifetime ago so I don't remember well, but somehow I recall one of my siblings getting annoying, I belted the kid, kid goes running off to Mom, Mom comes in and gives me shit about it, and then I'm back to my original state of solutude with the Atari -- all without too heavy of casualties in the upper levels of Demon Attack. >> What is the closest to dying you have ever come while involved with >> collecting arcade games? Ugh... The way I drive, jostling around in the bag from the thrift store while going 70 down the road is as close as I have come. I've been closer to death when it comes to sex, but haven't we all? | Or did just your joystick handle crack off during play and you | still finished the game successfully with the remaining stump? That's happened a couple times to me, always when playing Ballblazer with a Pointmaster joystick. I love those sticks, but they just don't hold up to the sort of grinding taking on a Drone-6 gives them. :) Sorting through the peripheral fragments as I try to pack for a move... << mush >> * 2qwk! 2.04 * SPINRITE: Vacuums the rug without asking you to lift your feet -- -- yet another annoying post by brian.hammack@rook.wa.com -- deal with it. --- From - Wed May 6 17:24:04 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ptdnetP!ptdnetS!newsgate.ptd.net!nnrp2.ptd.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic From: linkvb06@SpammersWillBeExecuted.postoffice.ptd.net Subject: Re: Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? (was:"Whats the closest to death you've come?") References: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F32A9.227F@auhs.edu> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:23:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: adu01.leh.ptd.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:23:54 EDT Organization: PenTeleData http://www.ptd.net Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:111944 Three years ago, during the big Blockbuster Video/Virtual Boy promotion. I had rented a VB to take with me on a several hour car trip to a football game. At the time, VB was brand-new and I wasn't aware that Nintendo had advised against use in moving vehicles. Well, three hours of VB, a three hour game, and another hour on the way home, my eyes were in PAIN and my head was going to EXPLODE. The funny thing is, I didn't know why! *LOL!* Having played Gameboy for so long, it never occured to me it might be the game. Took some pills and kept on playing all the way home and through the night. Hey, it was my first experience with a VB, a system I have come to adore! Reply to linkvb06@ptd.net remove "SpammersWillBeExecuted" number of spammers stopped: *** From - Wed May 6 17:24:12 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.uni-paderborn.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!srv1.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.crc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!news.hwcn.org!not-for-mail From: ad329@james.hwcn.org (Chris Cracknell) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? (was:"Whats the closest to death you've come?") Date: 6 May 1998 01:04:33 -0400 Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6ior11$aup@james.hwcn.org> References: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F32A9.227F@auhs.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.212.94.66 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:112005 In article , linkvb06@SpammersWillBeExecuted.postoffice.ptd.net wrote: >Well, three hours of VB, a three hour game, and another hour on the way >home, my eyes were in PAIN and my head was going to EXPLODE. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Yeeeeech! I feel like vomiting just imagining playing a VB in the car. I can't even play the Gameboy in the car without wanting to do the technicolour yawn. Oddly enough, though, I can play GB on the Go Bus when I take a trip to Toronto, but in a car I get too motion sick. I also can't play those ist person perspective maze games without wanting to yack. From what I understand this kind of motion sickness is causes when your eyes tell you you're moving, but your inner ear says you're staying still. But the VB games don't make me sick (I thought for sure that Red Alarm would make me chunder). CRACKERS (hurl from hell!!!!!!!!!!) -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= --- From - Thu May 7 16:04:05 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.alt.net!usenet From: emooney@SPAMFILTERattila.stevens-tech.edu (Erik Mooney) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? (was:"Whats the closest to death you've come?") Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:35:27 GMT Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com Lines: 31 Sender: emooney@SPAMFILTERattila.stevens-tech.edu Message-ID: <3554f1e6.81432784@news.alt.net> References: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F32A9.227F@auhs.edu> <6ior11$aup@james.hwcn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:112072 >Yeeeeech! I feel like vomiting just imagining playing a VB in the car. >I can't even play the Gameboy in the car without wanting to do the >technicolour yawn. Oddly enough, though, I can play GB on the Go Bus when >I take a trip to Toronto, but in a car I get too motion sick. Ditto here, actually... if I play Gameboy in a car, I start feeling a little queasy, but I can (and often do) play it on a train or bus and I'm fine. Weird. >I also can't play those ist person perspective maze games without wanting >to yack. From what I understand this kind of motion sickness is causes when >your eyes tell you you're moving, but your inner ear says you're staying still. I did for about the first week or so when I first played Doom, then adjusted. The key for me was to make sure the frame rate stayed high (had to put Doom in low detail on my 486/33), and use the mouse[1] for turning... much more natural, too chunky otherwise. It also actually helps to move around in your chair some as you play (lean over trying to see around a corner), so your inner ear says you're moving, which matches what your eyes say. [1] As an aside, I played Duke 3D with a thumb-trackball the other day... that felt *incredibly* smooth, fast, and natural. Wish I could convince myself to spend the $60 for one. >But the VB games don't make me sick (I thought for sure that Red Alarm would >make me chunder). I've played the VB only once, in a store demo setup; no problem there either other than leaning down at it (the viewport was mounted about 3' above the floor.) --- From - Wed May 6 18:41:21 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!not-for-mail From: CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: About avoiding GAME-SICKNESS in marathon games,stress etc... (was:"Q:What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ??? ...") Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 18:40:43 +0200 Organization: (I'm teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) Lines: 94 Message-ID: <3550928B.59E2@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> References: <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F32A9.227F@auhs.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fbi010.informatik.fh-hamburg.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105323 rec.games.video.classic:112037 Chris wrote: > > When I was around 10, and really caught up in the video game craze, > I was playing Space Invaders, Asteroids and some others nonstop on the > 2600. It got so bad that I had problems "seeing." I would look around, > and the sunlight would bother my eyes (should have gotten out more) or > would have problems focussing my eyes. And sometimes I would see > glimpses of space invaders or rocks splitting and I would be nowhere > near the 2600. They weren't hallucinations, but it's the same after > you've been playing a PC game for 6 hours straight, then try to go to > sleep soon after! I had mild headaches and eyeaches but I didn't care, > I kept playing like a madman! You too? I had similar experiences with "Rainbow Islands" on my Amiga.After I had bough this game(from flea market?),I played it once nearly an entire day.The hours afterward whenever I closed my eyes I saw the motion of the game hero shooting rainbows and letting them fall onto the oponents. It is CRUCIAL to supply your brain with enough dextrose and water while play- ing a maranthon game to avoid malfunctions of your nervous system caused by exhaustion-overloads.Though always have at least some soda water and dextrose bars(or cookies etc.) handy when you play for long time.For real marathon competitions salty sport drinks may be useful to compensate electrolyte losses caused by sweating. Never forget: everything that leads to total exhaustion maladjusts and possi- bly damages the nervous system. Long times ago in an old article Joe Ottoson complained: > > High speed exciting zoner games support this effect by increasing the blood- > > flow to the brain by positive stress and though they improve it's energy sup- > > ply. > > > They're also extremely frusterating (most of the time) and trigger a > strong stress response (unless you want to suddenly get away from > instinct...) But for the brain there is a strict difference between positive and negative stress.Negative stress is caused when the entire brain infra-structure is about to collapse in cause of energy supply problems in the brain,caused e.g. by too many unsaved data stored in its energy-consuming short-term memory.Po- sitive stress is not caused by energy supply problems in the brain,though it only becomes unhealthy when it endures way too long and though overloads the body(and after its energy breaks down,in the state of total exhaustion it fi- nally then becomes negative stress). But an appropriate amount of positive stress(no matter if from playing zoner games or from doing other sports) is just a training for our body that can makes us healthier and happier,as long as we don't exhaust our body too much. (As far I remember,there was even a british(?) study about videogames having a positive effect on the immune system.) In article , linkvb06@SpammersWillBeExecuted.postoffice.ptd.net wrote: >>Well, three hours of VB, a three hour game, and another hour on the way §>home, my eyes were in PAIN and my head was going to EXPLODE. §~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ § §Yeeeeech! I feel like vomiting just imagining playing a VB in the car. §... §I also can't play those ist person perspective maze games without wanting §to yack. From what I understand this kind of motion sickness is causes when §your eyes tell you you're moving, but your inner ear says you're staying still. §But the VB games don't make me sick (I thought for sure that Red Alarm would >make me chunder). In my childhood when I played "Rescue on Fractalus!" on my Atari XL,I felt like sitting in a moving helicopter cockpit whenever I stared at the moving 3D mountains.Now I usually have no problems with 3D flight games anymore. But my first longer games of "Doom" I tried(on a quite jerky 20Mhz 386er card in my Amiga),made me feel quite cyberspace-sick and caused my to unvoluntarly recognize people on the streets as walking targets for some hours.In Germany we have studies proving that realistical brutalistic games can have badly promming effects those can brutalize its players when they don't play with the strict awareness that real brutality is something evil.The brutalising effect gets especially dangerous when their brain's operating system(containing e.g. the conscience etc.) is not working stabile,which can e.g. be caused by states of total exhaustion.To go into neuronomical details here would be beyond the scope of this article,but I can e-mail informations to you if somebody is in- terested in this. MAY THE SOFTWARE BE WITH YOU! *============================================================================* I CYBERYOGI Christian Oliver(=CO=) Windler I I (teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) I I ! I *=============================ABANDON=THE=BRUTALITY==========================* --- Re:What's the most addictive video game you've played? (all "ZONER" games!) I think all meditative(trancy) high speed skill games(so-called "zoners") ne- ver become boring and can be played half a night long,although I would not call playing them an addiction,but rather a sort of meditation,helping to clean up the brain.(I am a researcher of neuronomy and will release an article about this topic.) The games I played and liked most in my childhood on my VCS2600 were "Centi- pede","Reactor","Crystal Castles","Laser Base"(= "World end"),"Dig Dug","Q*- Bert","Super Breakout" & "Super Ferrari"("Enduro" clone).Later I liked "Pole Position" on my Atari XL very much and I liked "Pitfall II"(no "zoner"),"Pac Man" & "Mr.Do!" too.On my Amiga I was disappointed that "Space Harrier" was a poor port and on my Gameboy I played "Tetris" permanently for a very long time.The only bad thing on Tetris is that at the end it gets that fast that you can still see what moves you wish to do,but your hands are too slow to follow;a sort of "Mindlink" or eyetracker could make of Tetris a completely new challenging experience. :) Actually I think "Tempest","Tempest 2000","Robotron" and "Blaster" for Amiga are very great "zoner" games and also many historical paddle games play time- lessly great,too.Also "Bedlam" on Vectrex could be a very great zoner game,if the control wouldn't be so jerky with my do-it-yourself replacement joystick. (A spinner knob would be fine... - Hint for John Dondzila!) Early,fast 3D ra- cing games like "Hyperchase" on Vectrex and "Turbo" on Colecovision are also great zoners."Web Warp" on my DVE emulator looks as it has a great potential too,but unfortunately on my PC it is way too slow to be interesting. (Am I the only one who likes playing the "Tempest 2000"-Demo on PC more than playing the full version? The demo has round tubes only and I love it,because unlike the full game it gets very quick very hard and though it is very mono- tonous and challenging,like many early great VCS games.) I read in Willams Arcade Classics "Behind the Scenes",that "Robotron 2048" is said to be played by some people for several hours with 1 coin.I have not learned to play it for more than some minutes yet,which may be reasoned by the fact that on my AMD486DX 120MHz "Robotron" and "Defender" often become jerky when they make certain sounds.(It is running via the quite incompatible Mozart soundcard.It jerks eg. when in Defender landers are shot and when in Robotron a robot emits lots of "*"-shaped shots.Without sound it runs ok.) I also have no proper reacting joysticks yet for this game. Is here someone around who plays on a Robotron machine for hours with 1 cre- dit?! - If yes,on which difficulty settings??? I could imagine,for a certain kind of hardcore gamers a "Tempest" or "Robotron 2048" arcade machine in their own basement could play the role of a special sort of "fetish" to them which worship has become an integral part of their life. I imagine a 112 year old man in the year 2070 found dead on the floor of his basement,his fists still embracing the 2 joysticks of the last working Robo- tron arcade machine in private possesion,which he always had hidden before as his personal secret. MAY THE SOFTWARE BE WITH YOU! *============================================================================* I CYBERYOGI Christian Oliver(=CO=) Windler I I (teachmaster of LOGOLOGIE - the first cyberage-religion!) I I ! I *=============================ABANDON=THE=BRUTALITY==========================* --- From - Wed May 7 11:03:25 1997 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.uni-mainz.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de!zeus.rbi.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!not-for-mail From: Pauldb@cris.com (Paul-David) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic,rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.vectrex Subject: Re: What's the most addictive video game you've played? (all "ZONER" games!) Followup-To: rec.games.video.classic,rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.vectrex Date: 7 May 1997 05:03:33 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 9 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5kp2f5$2rc@chronicle.concentric.net> References: <5joneu$lfg@misery.millcomm.com> <5k7pvp$dj2@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> <336ac3bc.5672970@130.127.8.1> <33699A48.2131302A@cc.memphis.edu> <336F4D17.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <336F40CA.22E6@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mariner.concentric.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:77623 rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:65283 rec.games.vectrex:5909 When playing robotron arcade you need to "in the zone" when the machine is on the difficult setting. PS - I used to be the best robotron player in the world. --- Jeffry Johnston jeffryj@azstarnet.com calamari on IRC From - Fri May 9 11:26:13 1997 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!ameritech.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.139.48.251!news.injersey.com!news From: noone@nowhere.com (Yogi) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.classic,rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.vectrex Subject: Re: What's the most addictive video game you've played? (all "ZONER" games!) Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 04:55:59 GMT Organization: Jellystone Park Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <33714876.8228005@news.injersey.com> References: <5joneu$lfg@misery.millcomm.com> <5k7pvp$dj2@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> <336ac3bc.5672970@130.127.8.1> <33699A48.2131302A@cc.memphis.edu> <336F4D17.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> Reply-To: noone@nowhere.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp003-clin.injersey.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.168 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.classic:77731 rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:65401 rec.games.vectrex:5916 On Tue, 06 May 1997 17:24:07 +0200, CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler wrote: -Is here someone around who plays on a Robotron machine for hours with 1 cre- -dit?! - If yes,on which difficulty settings??? - When I owned a Robotron machine I set it to factory and could play to wave 99 (about 2,500,000 points) pretty effortlessly. When I owned defender (traded it for the robotron) set that to EASY and could never get more than 473,000. You really have to "feel" to play that one. --- From chow@primenet.comMon Jun 16 19:29:26 1997 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:20:44 -0700 From: Brian Chojnowski To: CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler Subject: Re: Which is better Robotron or Smash TV ? [The following text is in the "ISO-8859-1" character set] [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set] [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly] Yep its true, and on the lvl 10 setting too. Sometimes it helps to play 1 player with 2 people, alternating turns. This way, you dont get overly tired standing in front of the machine. ... From - Fri May 8 08:14:44 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: bondavi@aol.com (Bondavi) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting Subject: Re: About the "ZONE"... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1998050800442900.UAA03184@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 May 1998 00:44:29 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <3550845E.2781@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105559 In the ZONE......hmmm Tempest and Robotron are my top 2 "zone" games, with Galaga a close third. I completely forget about the environment surrounding me, since the game becomes "one" with me. Actually, I play *MUCH* better playing in the "zone" on a given game than I would in a more normal state of mind. Thats one of the reasons I decided to collect old classic coinops, because they are so MUCH captivating in many asethetic ways, tapping into the creativeness/imagination of your mind. David Birchell From - Fri May 8 19:08:29 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.ruhrgebiet.individual.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!130.185.14.35!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!news.hwcn.org!not-for-mail From: ad329@james.hwcn.org (Chris Cracknell) Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: More about the "ZONE" and "zoner" games... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Date: 7 May 1998 23:38:36 -0400 Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet Lines: 50 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6ituns$ssp@james.hwcn.org> References: <3551D3DB.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <894425210.833468@karri.southwest.com.au> <3550ea99.46158383@news-server.san.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.212.94.66 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105636 rec.games.video.classic:112251 In article <3551D3DB.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de>, CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler wrote: >jrok - http://www.jrok.com wrote: >> >> On Wed, 6 May 1998 11:36:39 +0800, "Christopher Bedwell" >> wrote: >> >> >Whats a " Zone " ? >> >> It's the near Nirvana like state you reach after playing >> Defender for 6 hours straight without a bathroom break.. >> >> But seriously it's when you reach the point that you're >> playing a game completely on reactions without thinking >> and can basically play for as long as you want..... >> >> Defender is supposed to be THE 'zone' game. You can >> get into the zone with Pacman too. > >I wouldn't recommend to try to define the phenomenon of the "zone" by how much >points one can get or how long one can continously play it,but way rather by >the "feeling"(i.e. the state of mind) that a certain game is able to create. >That someone may play a game very long in the "zone" is rather a side effect >and nothing describing this phenomene. ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ I think the duration of play, score, and state of mind, are all aspects of being in the zone. My best "Zoners" have always been: "Gyruss" I was in a bar with a friend playing this game and not even a pair of lipstick lesbians making out on the couch was able to distract me from the game (kinda sad when you think about it ;). "Space Zap" my very first visit to "The Zone". "Galaga" at least on the 7800, I can play this one forever. "Snoopy Vs. Red Baron" on the 2600 is another zoner for me as well as "Seaquest". And although I can play indefinetly on 2600 "Space Invaders" I just don't get the "zone" sensation from that game. My brother used to be "in the zone" while playing "Chopper Command" on the 2600. CRACKERS (The white zone is for loading and unloading only from hell!!!) -- Accordionist - Wethifl Musician - Atari 2600 Collector | /\/\ *NEW CrAB URL* http://www.hwcn.org/~ad329/crab.html ***| \^^/ Bira Bira Devotee - FES Member - Samurai Pizza Cats Fan| =\/= From - Fri May 8 19:08:48 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.uni-mainz.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Gamester" Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: More about the "ZONE" and "zoner" games... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Date: 8 May 1998 11:41:51 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <01bd7a8f$bc75f140$341af2ce@gamester> References: <3551D3DB.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <894425210.833468@karri.southwest.com.au> <3550ea99.46158383@news-server.san.rr.com> <6ituns$ssp@james.hwcn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.242.26.52 X-Trace: 894627711 VRL06/YYI1A34CEF2C usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105650 rec.games.video.classic:112258 > I think the duration of play, score, and state of mind, are all aspects of > being in the zone. -- Gauntlet is probably the "zoniest" game for me. The first time I played it, was with 3 others. It was at Walkin Charlies in Daytona. They had a guy to stand at the machine just for us to give change. I spent $50 in one hour. About 2 years later I learned how to play, virtually forever, on 1 quarter. Still the greatest game for me. Gamester From - Fri May 8 19:08:57 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.ti.com!not-for-mail From: Ron Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: More about the "ZONE" and "zoner" games... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:54:48 -0500 Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35531CB8.609B0083@texoma.net> References: <3551D3DB.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <894425210.833468@karri.southwest.com.au> <3550ea99.46158383@news-server.san.rr.com> <6ituns$ssp@james.hwcn.org> <01bd7a8f$bc75f140$341af2ce@gamester> <35530DBC.75777C3B@library.unt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cna0460576.shvp.sc.ti.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105686 rec.games.video.classic:112266 Curtis Hart wrote: > The only game I was in a "Zone" would have to be Donkey Kong at a Putt-Putt > arcade. It it was probably a true 'zone' because when my mom finally got me to > leave (While still playing the game) I was apparently playing for about 30 > minutes, but was oblivious to anything surrounding me (Including the small > crowd gathered to watch) I was only 13 when this happenend so it was a big > boost to my ego to finally be one of those guys who had an audiance while > playing. :) I was playing Robotron for free in a grocery store at 2am in the morning. I started thinking about something else, I was totally unaware that I was playing at all. When I re-entered reality, I was well beyond any level I reached before and had many lives left which I lost quite quickly in my awakened state. --- From - Tue May 12 16:46:03 1998 Path: news.uni-hamburg.de!news.uni-mainz.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news.uk.ibm.com!rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!not-for-mail From: "Stef van Dijk" Newsgroups: rec.games.video.arcade.collecting,rec.games.video.classic Subject: Re: More about the "ZONE" and "zoner" games... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") Date: 8 May 1998 21:29:26 GMT Organization: IBM Austin Lines: 28 Message-ID: <01bd7a63$925f1de0$52c02509@svandijk.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <3551D3DB.41C6@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <354F014B.167E@informatik.fh-hamburg.de> <894425210.833468@karri.southwest.com.au> <3550ea99.46158383@news-server.san.rr.com> <6ituns$ssp@james.hwcn.org> <01bd7a8f$bc75f140$341af2ce@gamester> <35530DBC.75777C3B@library.unt.edu> <35531CB8.609B0083@texoma.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: svandijk.raleigh.ibm.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.uni-hamburg.de rec.games.video.arcade.collecting:105750 rec.games.video.classic:112307 Ron wrote in article <35531CB8.609B0083@texoma.net>... > I was playing Robotron for free in a grocery store at 2am in the morning. I started > > thinking about something else, I was totally unaware that I was playing at all. > When I > re-entered reality, I was well beyond any level I reached before and had many lives > > left which I lost quite quickly in my awakened state. > That's how it is for me. I'll be cooking right along not thinking about it. Then I glance around, notice the score or the wave number, and it snaps me right out of the zone. The lives start dropping like flies. "Panic" sets in, and it just spirals down from there. Maybe I should just tape over the score and wave number areas of the screen. Probably won't work as it's more the break in focus from having glanced away that did me in. -- Stef van Dijk Chapel Hill, NC svandijk@raleigh.ibm.com --- From awarner@voicenet.com Tue May 12 12:35:09 1998 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:55:07 -0400 From: Al Warner To: CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler Subject: Re: About the "ZONE"... (was:"What was your most unusual EXPERIENCE in the "ZONE" ???...") I was just going to comment how I was often lost in the BattleZone! When I was in college, I could get 200K games going. I remember having to give up my game to get to class and as I walked away I'd hear the wreck of my tank that I had been protecting so well. Then of course, my initials weren't there. Between me and another guy who was as good/better, we knew who had the score. I used to dream of those tanks in my sleep. I guess this is what was called a true addiction. Scores like those required "the Zone". I'm getting older, hard to find the Zone, can't get over 120K anymore. -Al- CYBERYOGI =CO= Windler wrote: > Bondavi wrote: > > > > In the ZONE......hmmm > > > > Tempest and Robotron are my top 2 "zone" games, with Galaga a close third. I > > completely forget about the environment surrounding me, since the game becomes > > "one" with me. Actually, I play *MUCH* better playing in the "zone" on a given > > game than I would in a more normal state of mind. Thats one of the reasons I > > decided to collect old classic coinops, because they are so MUCH captivating > > in many asethetic ways, tapping into the creativeness/imagination of your mind. > > > > David Birchell > > Yes,the relation of such games to their player may in some ways be compared > with the one of the magical drum to a shamen.Good zoners are a true psychede- > lic experience. > > By the way,does anybody know where the term "in the zone" came from and when > it did occure first? > > Was this term already used in pinball arcades before videogames were invented, > or did it occure later? I could only imagine that it had to do with Atari's(at > its time graphically very extraordinary) 3D arcade game "Battle Zone",although > I today wouldn't call this 1st person shooter a "typical" zoner. ... ==================================================================== -= Al Warner awarner@voicenet.com =- -= Owner of "Magic Sword", "AmeriDarts", "Blasteroids", "Toobin'", =- -= "Frogger", and the most classic "Battlezone" arcade video games. =- -= See the Magic Sword Project at: =- -= http://www.voicenet.com/~awarner/magswrd =- -= -New pages coming soon!- =- ==================================================================== --- From escher@texas.net Tue May 26 12:34:44 1998 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:22:13 -0500 From: Paul Schofield To: windle_c@informatik.fh-hamburg.de Subject: Robotron and Zoning Christian, Many, many years ago, my best high school buddy and I would play Robotron for hours at a time, usually on one quarter. The settings would be set at about half way in between. After we had been playing for about a month we developed patterns and sweeps that would work on each of the different levels, and yes it was a zoner game for sure. I would just look "through" the screen and play by "instinct" and it was the greatest feeling of all. I have not seen a Robotron 2084 in about 5 years, but just hooked up with MAME and immediatly bought two $10 joysticks and hacked them up to be more like Robosticks. It works ok for my first attempt. I even played for about 10 minutes getting to level 12. Practice and improved joysticks should get me back up to where I used to be, usually able to play over a hundred levels, can't remeber exactly how high we ever got. Thanks for the "Zoning" comments on Dejanews, brought back tearful memories ;-) Paul Schofield... -- ................................................... | Paul J. Schofield escher@texas.net | | Internet Consulting & WWW Presence Development | | http://lonestar.texas.net/~escher/ | ................................................... ---